selenak: (VanGogh - Lefaym)
[personal profile] selenak posting in [community profile] rheinsberg
Aka the results of a week spent in the Mark Brandenburg, post the first. I'm putting these not in the order in which I saw them, but in chronological order as they relate to the timeline of our antihero and relations.




First, of course, Wusterhausen, aka most loved by FW and most loathed by his older children and his wife palace of Prussia. Friedrich Wilhelm received this place as a present form his parents when he was still a child, and then shocked them by learning bookkeeping and administration with a vengeance, turning Wusterhausen into a self-sustaining estate. When he himself became King, he spent the summer months there with his family, roughly the time between August (at the latest) and early November.

Wusterhausen Gesamt


Wusterhausen

Today, you can't visit the highest levels anymore, due to a fire in the 19th century, but the upper level of the tower would be where Wilhelmine and her sisters stayed. She, as mentioned, hated the place. A current day visitor is asked to go up to the third floor, where the public reception rooms are, and go down from there. First, you enter the officers gallery:

Wusterhausen Offziersgalerie

If you're under the impression the lord of the manor is majorly into the military, you're right on. (Though the portraits he drew of his own famous "Long Fellows" aren't shown.)

Then from there the famous "Tabakskollegium" (which is translated either as "Tobacco Parliament" or "Tobacco Collegium" , but you get the picture. This is the place where FW and friends smoked, drank, talked, brutally pranked (poor Gundling), and occasionally terrorized the kids.

Tabakskollegium

And here's the painting showing the room, which these days is hanging there. That's tiny AW sitting on the table, and Ferdinand and Heinrich coming to wish their father good night. Since it's painted in 1737, Fritz thanks his lucky stars he's not there but in Rheinsberg.

Tabakkollegium

The room also contains these portraits of child!Fritz and next oldest brother August Wilhelm (he's the one in bright colors):

Fritz und AW

There's a painting of Gundling, the much abused scholar-turned-fool (in that FW treated him as such), mocked even in this painting, which shows him with his books but also with a woman hitting him with a slipper, and with a monkey:

Gundling

Gundling Detail

A present from August(us) the Strong; drinking hard was the one hobby he and FW shared, after all, and the useful thing with this particular present is that in times of need, you could melt the silver and reuse it.

Silbermünzenbecher

The next room was where mixed company could be received.

Empfangssaal mit Verwandtschaft

There are paintings of more or less illustrious relations hanging there, including Sophia Dorothea's brother George and his wife, aka George II. of England and Queen Caroline.

George und Caroline

On the second floor, the gallery offers more private pictures, including one FW painted of himself in 1737.

Zweiter Stock Gallerie

He'd taken up painting when his various illnesses forced him into bed more often than not, and this one is called "In Tormentis":

Selbstporträt FW

And there's a famous one of all four sons (from let to right, Fritz, Ferdinand, August Wilhelm, Heinrich):

Die Söhne

On this level, you have the (tiny) study, which has portraits of FW's parents, Sophie Charlotte and Friedrich I., and of himself as a child:

Kabinett mit Eltern

Goddaughter of Liselotte of the Palatinate, pen pal of Leipniz, and supposedly the first female intellectual of Prussia:

Sophie Charlotte

Badmouthed by his grandson as a no good spendthrift, but actually the first flutist in the family as well as the first King in Prussia:

F1

Tiny Terror FW. He much preferred this one, which shows him with a hunting dog, to the one where his mother made him pose as David:

Tiny Terror FW

What passed for a festive party room at Wusterhausen is also on the second floor:

Festsaal


Festsaal Rückwärts

And this was Queen Sophia Dorothea's room, which today features portraits of all her daughters and of her first two sons who died as babies. (Fritz was No.3 and survived.) Keep it in mind when seeing future pic spams of other palaces to appreciate just how much she was not into the austerity of this one:

SDs Zimmer

Zimmer SD

Wilhelmine and the two dead baby brothers:

Wilhelmine und tote Brüder

Close up on the Wilhelmine as a girl portrait:

Wilhelmine

Wilhelmine Detail

SD:

Sophie Dorothea

On to FW's chamber:

Zimmer FW

FWs Zimmer Rückblick

This one has portraits of the sons I hadn't seen before:
Zimmer FW - Söhne

AW and Heinrich:

AW und Heinrich

Fritz, hanging above the door, marked as crown prince by the crown in the background, looking distinctly not underfed:

Fritz in Wusterhausen

Ferdinand:

Ferdinand

Madame de Roucoulles, governress to both FW and Fritz in turn:

Madame de Roucoulles

Wusterhausen from the backside:

Wusterhausen von Hinten

One more look at the place Fritz never visited again once he'd made it to throne, thus avoiding a family disaster in 1770:

Wusterhausen total




On to Wust. Much as Wusterhausen today is called "Königs Wusterhausen" to differentiate it from other places bearing the name, Wust today is "Wust-Fischbeck", as there are other Wusts as well. This one was the family seat of the Katte clan, which is of course why I was there. You can read Mildred's guide here.

Limiting myself to some additional info and pictures, I give you:



This is the former Katte mansion. Today it serves a primary school, and in summer (except for Corona summers) as an international language school. Mark the cat emblem next to the door:

Katte-Haus

The church was originally a Romanic one, built between 1196 and1205. Hans von Katte, enterprising nobleman during the 30 Years War in the 17th century, gave it a complete Baroque make-over.

Kirche Wust von vorne

Kirche und Katte-Gruft

This is Hans von Katte:

Hans von Katte

Said makeover also meant a gorgeous Flemish ceiling with lots of painted angels. This fascinated me, because by Hans von Katte's time, this church (and Katte himself) was most definitely Protestant. And yet...


Kirche Innen Längs

Kircheninneres

Detail Decke

The organ was donated by Ludolf von Katte, Lehndorff's rival, more about him below. Our local historian said archly that this was the only worthy thing Ludolf ever did.

Kirche mit Orgel

Let's go out again, which you have to in order to get to the tombs.

Kirche und Gruft Wust

You can see that the apsis of the church lowers itself into the crypt.

Apsis mit Senkung

This was significant in terms of what happened to Hans Herrmann von Katte's earthly remains. First of all, he was buried at Küstrin and in the earth for weeks, though the assumption is his father got permission for the reburial before the year 1730 was over. Secondly, his wooden coffin stood directly on the floor, not, like the other sarcophagi, on wood planks. Thirdly, his coffin stood directly under the end of the apsis. Which meant that if it rained, all the water and the humidity went downwards directly into Hans Herrmann's wooden coffin. Consequently, whereas all the other Kattes turned out to be mumified by dry air when their coffins were openened, Hans Herrmann was a rotting skeleton poste haste. And that was before 19th century grave tourism became a thing, and because the Kattes owning Wust in the early 19th century were a gambler and am madman respectively, they didn't care that tourists came and took bones, and teeth. Only when remote cousin Hans Aemilius took over was this grave looting put to an end. It's a wonder anything is left, but it is, as you can see in these photos that show everyone's dead bodies and skeletons, and also list their names:

Auflistung tote Kattes

Fotos von Leichen

Fotos Detail

Kattes Gebeine

Crypt as seen from the entrance door looking left, Hans Hermann's coffiin in the wooden one in the back:

Katte-Gruft

The crypt as seen from Hans Hermann's coffin:

Katte Gruft von HH's Sarg aus

Hans Herrmann's coffin:

Hans Herrmanns Sarg

His father Hans Heinrich's coffin:

Feldmarschall Hans Heinrich

Note the Athena depiction on Hans Heinrich in front:


Athene Detail Feldmarschall

Hans Heinrich's wives lie to both sides of him. The coffin directly next to Hans Herrmann is that of his younger half brother, while at the very end of the row there is the coffin of the other half brother. Both half brothers died dueling each other. Now the written sources I'd read said this was over a girl, but our local historian said no, this was actually over money. Because Hans Heinrich had wanted his youngest son to inherit, who had been still a minor when Hans Heinrich died. The duel took place not too long after he'd reached his majority and thus was supposed to take over Wust, but duelling each other to the death out of financial greed did not fly with either the Prussian codex or romantic Katte fans, and thus the duel became for love for a fictional love interest.

One brother died at once, the other later of blood poisoning. This was the end of Hans Heinrich's branch of the fammily, and his brother Hans Cristoph's line took over. To be precise, cousin Ludolf, "the three times fortunate" (because he inherited Hans Heinrich's fortune, Hans Christoph's fortune and his wife Catherine du Rosey's fortune), which he and subsequent Kattes all managed to spend at top speed. I was wondering why the former Miss Du Rosey, who was Lehndorff's One Who Got Away and cousin, wasn't there, but the lady who opened the crypt for me told me she married again after Ludolf's death, a Bredow, took her "one or two children" and moved away, never to be seen near the Kattes again. Which explains why wiki was so uncertain about her death date and number of children, I suppose, because the lady thinks she had some more in her second marriage.

The infamous "Boot-Katte", who finished the ruination of the estate in the early 19th century, and Hans Aemilius, who had the thrankless job of restoring it years later:

Aemilius und Stiefel

Fontanen didn't meet Hans Aemilius, only his wife and daughter, when he came to Wust as part of his research for the Wanderungen. This, however, turned out to be Fontane's good luck, because both ladies were far more inclined to talk than Hans Aemilius would have been, and told him every family story they could remember, with the result that they ended up in German literature. On that note, I conclude this first of several pic spams as the result of my own Wanderungen durch die Mark Brandenburg.

Date: 2020-08-15 04:06 am (UTC)
cahn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cahn
This is so fascinating and so cool you got to go to these places!

Of course Dear Old Wusterhausen has a special place in my heart due to sibling shenanigans. And I think you have shown a lot of these pictures to us -- but that is so cool you got to see them in person! And also I don't recall seeing Gundling, I think that one is definitely new to me :((((((((

I'm sure mildred will have way more to say about the Kattes :D I want to say I love the cat emblems, and the, er, Protestant angels?? on the ceiling :D And the local historian is the best!! That is so intersting that it was actually over money but dueling over a girl became the sanitized version, lol!
Edited Date: 2020-08-15 04:08 am (UTC)

Date: 2020-08-15 05:41 pm (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard
And might end the King's favour to the family, for that matter.

OOOH, that makes sense too!

Date: 2020-08-16 05:48 pm (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard
OH RIGHT. See, I eventually figured out her Wikipedia death date was wrong, but I had only partially updated my mental chronology. I still had her dying before her sons in my head, even though I knew the dates and had updated my family tree accordingly. Sheesh.

Which means she had to experience her sons killing each other in addition to losing the stepson just a few years younger than herself whom she was fond of.

Oh, gosh, poor thing. :( I should do something nice for her, like work her into a fic or something. :P

Date: 2020-08-15 05:42 pm (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard
I'm sure mildred will have way more to say about the Kattes :D

As it was foretold, so it came to pass. :P

Date: 2020-08-15 05:41 pm (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard
Just imagine me squeeing in sheer euphoria over all these pictures and accompanying commentary in all four posts!

A present from August(us) the Strong; drinking hard was the one hobby he and FW shared, after all, and the useful thing with this particular present is that in times of need, you could melt the silver and reuse it.

Most on-brand FW moment ever. :P

(Though the portraits he drew of his own famous "Long Fellows" aren't shown.)

Wait, do they not let you see them at all? That was the main reason I put Wusterhausen on my to-visit list!

Wonderful pictures of Wusterhausen all, thanks. It continues to irritate me that my own aesthetic is much closer to FW's than anyone else's. :P

WUST WUST WUST WUST WUST thank you!

For the commentary and also the 45 pictures you sent me. I'm just imagining the local historian and your AP waiting patiently while you explain you have a friend who needs pictures of ALL the tombs and ALL the writing anywhere in the crypt. The bulletin boards, omg, thank you! They answered so many of my questions! And I can't believe you managed to get a readable image of that tiny little scrap of writing in the almost inaccessible corner of Katte's coffin lid. That is some dedication! (And is much appreciated, because I'd been wondering about it, but I never imagined I'd get a readable picture.)

*non-tragic handkisses*

The church was originally a Romanic one, built between 1196 and1205. Hans von Katte, enterprising nobleman during the 30 Years War in the 17th century, gave it a complete Baroque make-over.

I didn't know the exact dates, thank you! My own picspam said "about 1200."

This is Hans von Katte:

Okay, if that's Thirty Years' War guy, that makes far more sense out of the prominence within the church and the clothing and hairstyles depicted in the carving, than the date I had found, which was d. 1716. I shall update my post!

*reads image more closely* Oh, that's Hans Heinrich's dad. Oh, wow, it says his wife died only hours after he did! Okay, I'm remembering correctly, the family tree I put together from Wikipedia has them dying 2 days apart. I don't suppose the local historians said what they died of? They were the ones we were speculating might have died of the plague.

Oh, also, I had seen that the carving was of an 11-yo, but either I or the person writing it must have misunderstood, because left of the altar is an epitaph for an 11-year-old, 1667-1678. Oh, and his name is Hans Heinrich, which means 3 years after Hans Katt's first son named Hans Heinrich died tragically young, he named his next son (and father of Hans Hermann) Hans Heinrich. Aha.

Man, this visit was so educational. Thank you so much!

Said makeover also meant a gorgeous Flemish ceiling with lots of painted angels. This fascinated me, because by Hans von Katte's time, this church (and Katte himself) was most definitely Protestant. And yet...

I noticed that! It surprised me too.

The organ was donated by Ludolf von Katte, Lehndorff's rival, more about him below. Our local historian said archly that this was the only worthy thing Ludolf ever did.

:DDDD I did *not* know that, and I also didn't know he was so unpopular in Wust. Vindication for Lehndorff and cousin du Rosey!

First of all, he was buried at Küstrin and in the earth for weeks, though the assumption is his father got permission for the reburial before the year 1730 was over. Secondly, his wooden coffin stood directly on the floor, not, like the other sarcophagi, on wood planks. Thirdly, his coffin stood directly under the end of the apsis. Which meant that if it rained, all the water and the humidity went downwards directly into Hans Herrmann's wooden coffin.

Ooooh. I had just figured it was the wooden coffin + the Küstrin burial + the trip to Wust, didn't realize there was also water leakage. Yikes.

Well, you get the most wreaths, Hans Hermann, and you're responsible for most of the tourism. <3

because the Kattes owning Wust in the early 19th century were a gambler and am madman respectively

*snort* I take it that's "Der Spieler" and "Stiefel-Katte"?

Note the Athena depiction on Hans Heinrich in front:

It was only thanks to the pictures you sent me that I was able to make this out! *more hand-kisses*

I was wondering if your local historians would have anything to say about the fact that it's headless. Was the top broken off? Is it symbolic of Hans Hermann? :P (Okay, tongue-in-cheek, but I couldn't resist.)

The coffin directly next to Hans Herrmann is that of his younger half brother, while at the very end of the row there is the coffin of the other half brother. Both half brothers died dueling each other.

I've always been amused that they were put at far opposite ends from each other.

Both half brothers died dueling each other. Now the written sources I'd read said this was over a girl, but our local historian said no, this was actually over money. Because Hans Heinrich had wanted his youngest son to inherit, who had been still a minor when Hans Heinrich died. The duel took place not too long after he'd reached his majority and thus was supposed to take over Wust, but duelling each other to the death out of financial greed did not fly with either the Prussian codex or romantic Katte fans, and thus the duel became for love for a fictional love interest.

OOOH. As you know, I'd seen both stories. This makes perfect sense!

I'd also been wondering how the duel over the inheritance would have arisen. So Hans Heinrich preferred the younger son.

Fritz: See, my family is so harmonious! At least AW and I didn't KILL EACH OTHER IN A DUEL.

Me: It's a low bar, Hohenzollern boys, but you cleared it!

I was wondering why the former Miss Du Rosey, who was Lehndorff's One Who Got Away and cousin, wasn't there, but the lady who opened the crypt for me told me she married again after Ludolf's death, a Bredow, took her "one or two children" and moved away, never to be seen near the Kattes again. Which explains why wiki was so uncertain about her death date and number of children, I suppose, because the lady thinks she had some more in her second marriage.

Ooooh! Yes, this does explain it.

The infamous "Boot-Katte", who finished the ruination of the estate in the early 19th century, and Hans Aemilius, who had the thrankless job of restoring it years later:

Man. The Kattes just did not have good luck after the Hans Heinrich generation.

The bulletin board, though, says the tomb in this picture is Hans Aemilius' wife Maria, though, and Hans Aemilius is in the tower?

I find it interesting that Hans died first, but was buried in the tower, and Maria died second, but was buried in the last remaining spot in the crypt, also nowhere near her husband. I would have expected them to fill up the crypt first, then go back to the tower.

Also, I'd thought that the crypt was built by Hans Heinrich after the unexpected death of his first wife because the tower was full. Maybe Hans Aemilius saw that the crypt was getting full, and he expanded the tower or otherwise made room for himself? And then he wanted to be buried there, but after his death, somebody squeezed Maria in sideways into the the last remaining spot in the crypt?

Do we know what that piece of red fabric is hanging on the wall behind them?

Fontanen didn't meet Hans Aemilius, only his wife and daughter, when he came to Wust as part of his research for the Wanderungen. This, however, turned out to be Fontane's good luck, because both ladies were far more inclined to talk than Hans Aemilius would have been, and told him every family story they could remember, with the result that they ended up in German literature.

Niiiiice. You go, ladies! Lehndorff, you dropped the ball, but it does sound like Ludolf was not the greatest. You are forgiven.

(My kingdom for a body swap. :P)

On that note, I conclude this first of several pic spams as the result of my own Wanderungen durch die Mark Brandenburg.

And you have brought one member of the salon the greatest joy of her entire week. :D Man, I need to find time to incorporate your commentary into at least the family tree post, even if I don't have time/physical capacity to re-re-re-do the tree itself.

Re: I'm happy you're happy :)

Date: 2020-08-16 06:27 pm (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard
Wait, do they not let you see them at all? That was the main reason I put Wusterhausen on my to-visit list!

Nope. Alas.


Awww! Well, next time one (or all three?) of us is in the vicinity, we should check to see if that's changed.

I couldn't get it with my normal camera, but with my mobile phone.

I knoooow, I totally had this image of you crouching down and stretching out your arm and angling your cell phone just right to get that picture. While everyone stared and you went, "I'm not this crazy! It's for my friend who's crazy. I'm just very generous and patient, really!"

<333333333

[personal profile] cahn, seriously, look. I requested "readable text of all writing on the tombs or the walls of the crypt, insofar as feasible," and she got me a readable closeup of the little white scrap with writing on it in the far right of the coffin lid! Which I was totally not expecting to be feasible. She is THE BEST.

a group of Potsdam scientists had this theory that the forehead cavity was as singular as a finger print, and to prove it they examined mausoleums with bodies (or skeletons) of closely related people; the Katte family were just one of them. They weren't finished with the project when the wall fell, and then they disappeared, never to be heard of again. Which gave rise to conspiracy theorists claiming that those aren't really Hans Herrmann's bones - maybe Hans Heinrich took the wrong body home from Küstrin, or maybe Hans Herrmann was exchanged in the centuries later, or maybe Hans Herrmann was never Hans Herrmann at all, but a woman in disguise because Hans Heinrich wanted a son! (People, "Rose of Versailles" is not history.)

Oh, woooow, this is weird!

1) Be very surprised if Hans Heinrich couldn't recognize his beheaded son after only a few weeks. I don't know how long it took him to retrieve the body, but FW granted permission on November 24, so sometime in late November or early December.

2) Could be, considering apparently NONE OF THE KATTE HEIRS CARED (until Hans Aemilius), but when Fontane was there, he apparently witnessed or talked to people who had witnessed the missing vertebra taken by souvenir hunters, so...somebody went to a lot of trouble to create a convincing replacement.

3) What. Is this just another way of making Fritz het?

a group of Potsdam scientists had this theory

Ooh, this makes sense of the institute for forensic medicine in Potsdam referred to in that little scrap on the coffin lid that you got me that picture of!

Another thing: according to her the first name Lehndorff's du Rosey cousin used was Marie, not Catherine.

Noted!

I carefully avoided picking one for "Lovers". Thank goodness we had a German speaker go do in-person research and get all these little tidbits. ;)

mind you, her corpse was mumified along with the others, and when they did the investigation of all the coffins that produced the photos, there were remains of a tumor in her abdomen. Which could have happened simultanous to a pregnancy or be mistaken for a pregnancy, I suppose.

Ooh, neat. I had been wondering what she died of. Well, Wikipedia, to the extent that it can be trusted, gives the birth of her last child in October 1706, and though they say Mom died 1707, the Wust people say 1706. So if Wust is correct about Mom's death year and Wikipedia is correct about the birthdate of the sister, she was pregnant that year.

I am reminded of a story of one of my great-grandmothers. She was giving birth, and after the baby was born, the labor contractions continued. The midwife felt around, and said, "Lucy! I think twins!" But what Great-grandma ended up delivering was a nearly baby-sized benign tumor. She went on to live into her 90s, but if Katte's mother's wasn't so benign... :(

And that was when Hans Heinrich had the crypt built.

Oh, and: Hans Herrmann's oldest half sister married into the Winterfeldt family - if we already knew this, I'd forgotten, one Gebhardt von Winterfeldt.

We did know this! It's in the family tree I made, and I remember you asking if it was the same Winterfeldt, and I looked it up and said no. In fact, apparently I footnoted that in the official Rheinsberg entry as "[6] Johann Gebhard: Not the same Winterfeld as the one who was a favorite general of Fritz's."

I'm happy you're happy :)

I'm SO happy. One day I may even produce fic.

Wust

Date: 2020-08-30 09:01 pm (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard
I was chatting with Royal Patron today, telling him all about the Wust visit, and that reminded me of a couple things I wanted to bring up here.

Much as Wusterhausen today is called "Königs Wusterhausen" to differentiate it from other places bearing the name, Wust today is "Wust-Fischbeck", as there are other Wusts as well.

From what I've seen in my rather obsessive research of Wust, it's called that because Wust is no longer a municipality, but was merged with Fischbeck to become Wust-Fischbeck. Wikipedia tells me the merger happened in 2010.

So I was showing RP a couple pictures of the crypt (solely so he could appreciate the difficulty of getting that shot of the piece of paper in Katte's coffin lid and so he could know how much you went above and beyond when it came to satisfying my desire for pictures <3), and explaining how everyone got elaborate sarcophagi and Hans Hermann still has the plain wooden box of a condemned criminal.

And that reminded me that I'd been meaning to ask what was up with that.

Not transferring him to a sarcophagus before 1740, well and good. Not having the time to do it between May 1740 and May 1741, especially with the war on starting November/December 1740, sure.

Ludolf, and especially his heirs who are perfectly fine with people collecting Hans Hermann vertebrae and teeth as souvenirs, I expect nothing less of them.

But what about Bredow stepmom, who apparently made sure both her duel-murdering sons and herself got elaborate tombs placed just so, with her next to her long-dead husband and the sons on either side of the wives? (Far, far apart, as I always notice. :P)

Why didn't stepmom go, "Oh, and oldest stepson who's the reason the new King keeps favoring our family, maybe he should get a nice tomb too"? She had 14 years in which to do that.

Now, personally, *I* actually don't mind that Hans Hermann's coffin is plain, wooden, and stashed in a corner. On aesthetic grounds, it sets him apart, and it reminds me of Küstrin, which gives me feels. (Also, aesthetically, remember that I prefer Wusterhausen to any of the other palaces. :P)

But for someone who knew and (presumably?) loved him, judging by that final letter (though you have to consider the genre), and Prussian honor culture being what it was, I'm surprised that someone who did care enough about elaborate tombs to get one herself and/or for her sons (depending on who made what decision for whom), didn't also decide that Hans Hermann deserved to join the rest of the family in posthumous style, once the King would have been cool with it.

Am trying to figure out Hans Hermann/stepmom dynamics, for that fic where he goes back to visit her when Hans Heinrich is dying, and again when dueling half-brothers kill each other.

Did one of the male members of the family veto it? And if so, why?
Edited Date: 2020-08-30 09:04 pm (UTC)

Re: Wust

Date: 2020-09-01 03:11 am (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard
Oh, wow, all the feels.

Putting him in a regular tomb would have prettified the death into something normal. Leaving him in the wooden coffin made it clear what had been done to him.

I absolutely love that explanation. And it works, too, because the first thing I think of when I see that coffin is Küstrin and what happened to him.

not a gesture of shame but of defiance (of FW) and affection (for Hans Herrmann)

I have to admit that defiance didn't enter into my original headcanon, only affection (the only physical object he had left of Katte), but I *loved* your defiance headcanon when you brought it up, and now it's mine too. Criminal solidarity!

So he evidently did not want to wash his hands off him in death, or to disown him, but wanted Hans Herrmann to lie with the other dead Kattes as part of the family.

I vaguely remember his argument to FW being "so the neighbors don't talk," but that's totally what I would say to FW if I meant, "MY POOR BOY, he didn't deserve this." :P

Of course, it could have been concern for public opinion, since that was a big thing back then if you were a noble, and an executed deserter would reflect on the family, and I'm sure the local peasants would be happy to gossip about the Lord of Wust's comedown.

But if stepmom was concerned about public opinion and the shame being reflected on the family, I'd expect she'd upgrade the tomb pronto after Fritz's accession, sweep it under the rug, pretend it never happened. Since she didn't, either she was all "fiat justitia," or, as you say, silent, visual defiance. It always hits me viscerally to see all those "This is what a normal noble tomb looks like" sarcophagi in a row looking all essentially alike, and the small, plain, dark wooden coffin straight out of Küstrin off to the side.

Even Klosterhuis and the Wust male historian who argue that Hans Heinrich was on board with the FW fiat justitia reasoning

So on the one hand, he writes that letter to his brother Heinrich Christoph saying he has to throw his son to the wolves and turn him in to the King.

BUT, on the other, he's like "Pleeease don't kill my son" to FW, so that FW had to write back, "I commiserate with you as a father, but hope you will collect yourself as a reasonable man, and will not prefer compassion to justice, to the welfare of the entire country, and to my quiet state of mind," *and* he requested 4 weeks to grieve and rebury Hans Hermann next to his (Hans Hermann's) mother (at the time, the only other occupant of that crypt which Hans Heinrich had built for her).

*And*, that whole wolf-throwing was not a disinterested case of doing the right thing for its own sake. It's *his* neck on the line too if FW finds out he knew and kept it a secret. Nothing about that letter reads "It would be better for him to die than for justice to pass out of the world" to me.

Here's the letter again, courtesy of Fontane:

My dear brother!

With what sadness I grab my quill, God knows. You will have regretfully heard from your son in the Empire how our godless children have put themselves into the greatest labyrinth, and thus has your son written to the Major von Rochau. The later has forwarded this letter to me with the batman, as I am currently in Königsberg and must stay here. I have regarded it as my duty to abandon my son, to keep my oath and my obligation, and have sent your son's letter to the King with a messenger. If my son hasn't succeeded in his desertion, the King will probably arrest him. I cannot do more than sigh and leave him to God and the King's mercy. Adieu, my dear brother. God give us strength in our misery. I am your loyal brother, H.H. Katt.


Also, Fontane says that later letters (which he doesn't quote) prove that it had never occured to Hans Heinrich that the King would go for the death penalty when he wrote the first one, that he had assumed it would be prison.

So unless Klosterhuis and Wust historian have more evidence that I haven't considered (I'm frantically trying to improve my German so I can read them on my own), I think they're just trying to justify their own support of FW's decision by saying Hans Heinrich was on board with it. :P

My current headcanon is that Hans Heinrich would absolutely have been against his son's decision, but once it was done, he didn't want him dead, and that he understood why Hans Hermann did it even if he didn't approve. And from that letter to his brother, the "if he hasn't escaped, I can only hope for the King's mercy," it kiiiinda sounds like he maybe hopes Hans Hermann has escaped, but can't say so in writing.

Accordingly, my fix-it plan is for Hans Heinrich to drop a couple hints in letters that leave Hans Hermann in exile thinking, "Is he saying he doesn't approve but understands? Fritz? Peter? Is that how this reads to you?" followed by a deathbed reconciliation in 1741, when it's safe for Hans Hermann to make a trip back.

I seriously doubt Stepmom who wasn't an indoctrinated Prussian officer thought what Hans Herrmann had done was so unforgivable that it merited post death shaming. Otoh, her thinking "this was done to Hans Hermann, whom I loved, and I refuse to dress it up for posterity" - this I could see.

I LOVE THIS

I mean, what with the preacher practically declaring him a martyr and already in front of God's throne with the angels in the letter to Hans Heinrich, I could see the bereaved feeling that the upgraded sentence was unjust. Or even too just and not merciful enough.

(1) Alternate reading which just occured to me: "My son has forgiven the crown prince according to the letters I've been sent, so I, too, must forgive Fritz." Because we know who's been asking for forgiveness prominently in those Küstrin reports, and who was prominently told there was nothing to forgive, and it wasn't FW.

OH MY GOD. So I read the first interpretation, and thought, "Yeah, that checks out, Hans Heinrich is mad at FW for upgrading the sentence," and then your revised comment notification came in, and MY HEART BROKE.

Because you're right. While Katte *did* say it in that last not-really-his-letter to Fritz that wasn't FW's fault, it was God's will and FW was just the instrument...yeah. All the forgiveness talk has been between Fritz and Katte.

Hans Heinrich, it's not Fritz's fault! When Katte said NOTHING to forgive, he meant nothing! He didn't mean he forgave Fritz. (And he was lying about FW. :P)

Besides, Hans Hermann was totally a free agent when it came to Fritz. Not so with FW.

:-(((

Also, all of Hans Heinrich's *letters* going OH NOES were directed to the King, and the letter to his brother mentions the King, so I'm going with Hans Heinrich is trying to forgive FW here and FW knows it. :P

Well, anyway, thank you, I adopt your headcanon about stepmom wholeheartedly, and I approve of her decision. RP was all, "Poor Hans Hermann!" over the coffin thing, and I told him, "I actually don't mind; it makes him stand out, and reminds you of what happened."

Also, I've always wondered: how awkward was that meeting between Fritz and Hans Heinrich in 1741? Was it this huge unspoken subtext running beneath "Well, you're overdue for a promotion to the highest rank in the army, and here's a county, and since you're headed back to Königsberg anyway, you can come with me," and Hans Heinrich kind of stoically accepting the offers and expressing his gratitude, and no one ever mentioning the obvious?

Or did they have a good 18th century cry together? How did Hans Heinrich leave Fritz believing he didn't blame him? (Because, if the favors kept coming, I feel like a hypersensitive Fritz must not have been getting accusatory vibes...but I could be wrong.)

Re: Wust

Date: 2020-09-01 08:35 pm (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard
actually painted postumously by one of his university classmates in Halle at Hans Heinrich's request (Hans Heinrich mentions this in a letter)

!! I vaguely remembered it was posthumous, but if I learned that Hans Heinrich commissioned it, it has left no trace in my memory.

This portrait was on display in the main Katte mansion, together with other family portraits

And this I didn't know at all.

Oh, man. My headcanon is confirmed!

You don't do that if you're ashamed of your son/stepson.

Nope!

But on the other, I can't see these two managing that.

Hahaha, so, when I originally wrote this up, I wrote, "I've always imagined [the stoic encounter]. I can't imagine these two crying over Hans Hermann or really even talking about him," but then I thought, "Selena's talked me into headcanons before; I'll give her a chance to do it here." So I rephrased it to be totally neutral.

But now that you agree with me...

Right? I can't see it at all. Formal, indirect, and very ambiguous communication is as far as I see these two going.

:(

this continuing handing out favours even if it's cousin Ludolf does not read like a man who feels forgiven by Hans Herrman's family, either.

Hmm. I don't know, I think his sense of honor, a desire to repay the sacrifices by Hans Hermann and his family, and most of all, Fritz's own personal survivor's guilt might account for it. But agree that explicit forgiveness was probably not issued. My headcanon is that by dint of them both not talking about it, the message was sent and received that they were going to let it lie in the past.

But since Hans Heinrich was begging FW for a reprieve, and Hans Hermann told Fritz there was *nothing* to forgive, and that letter to Hans Heinrich about his son being clad in white before God's throne, I'm going to cling desperately to my headcanon that Hans Heinrich was struggling to forgive FW, upgrader of the sentence. Though I agree he could have had Fritz, or both Fritz and FW, in mind. :(

Re: Wust

Date: 2020-09-03 04:09 am (UTC)
cahn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] cahn
(1) Alternate reading which just occured to me: "My son has forgiven the crown prince according to the letters I've been sent, so I, too, must forgive Fritz." Because we know who's been asking for forgiveness prominently in those Küstrin reports, and who was prominently told there was nothing to forgive, and it wasn't FW.

I SO do not subscribe to this :P I mean mostly because it would make all of us sad, but also because if one of those people maybe convinced my child to do something that I didn't agree with and thought was dangerous, and the other one actually executed my child, I sure know which one I'd be angsting about forgiving. Especially given what [personal profile] selenak says about the coffin and the portrait :P

Re: Wust

Date: 2020-09-03 09:04 pm (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard
With you on this! Somewhat firmer evidence is that Hans Heinrich's actual letters were to *FW* and all "please don't kill my son" and "please let me rebury and grieve my son." And FW was like, "Don't be mad at me. Our sons are just rogues, nothing we as A+ fathers can do."

FW: *thinks his son deserves to die*
HH: *doesn't think his son deserves to die*
HH: *maybe also doesn't think FW's son deserves to die*
HH: *maybe also doesn't think FW's son is the problem here*

:P

Now I'm imagining Hans Heinrich and stepmom agreeing that Hans Hermann (WHY did they both have HH as initials??) was going to lie in that wooden coffin forever. And also painting.

Man, that would be right up my alley for angsty death and death-ritual fics. :P (For some reason, I am fascinated by rituals around death and grieving, hence the existence of a fic on the Antinous statue.)

Oh, speaking of the statue, Fritz acquired it in 1747. 1748 was when the fraternal duel happened, after which Fritz arranged for the heiress marriage. I think Fritz very much had tragic boyfriend Katte on his mind around this time. <3 :(

Re: Wust

Date: 2020-09-04 01:09 am (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)
From: [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard
how awkward was that meeting between Fritz and Hans Heinrich in 1741?

I meant in 1740, obviously.

Date: 2020-10-04 01:41 pm (UTC)
felis: (House renfair)
From: [personal profile] felis
Came back to check out this series of posts again, with more context now that I've learned more. Enjoyed them a lot! And I was rather struck by Wilhemine's portrait in this one, because a) she looks really sad to me (but I might be projecting context onto that), and b) her eyes seem very similar to her brother's (as much as one can tell given the quality of some Fritz portraits).

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